It feels like gauntlet meets ground when I see my post and its comments referenced as if it were an intelligent or logical discussion/debate of this issue. So I feel compelled to lay out some of my objections to Jim's objections and to make a statement regarding the rights of women to serve in the same capacities as men.
Jim's arguments, as he stated in this clip, boil down to two problems:
- Men cannot separate their (debatable) psychological evolutionary urges from logic. In other words, if a woman is around, they cannot help but infantilize her and ensure that she's safe from all harm. Even if she's carrying a weapon and is much more adept at its use then he is.
- Men cannot separate their biological evolutionary urge to spread their genes as far and wide as possible, and therefore are incapable of acting professionally when there's a potential womb receptacle for their seed.
Other objections I've heard elsewhere that sound as ridiculous are:
- Newt Gingrich telling a classroom full of college students that women can't serve on the front lines because they get infections.
- They might be tortured, and they can't handle that. So...who has the babies here? Who can do so without any drugs and be just fine?
- They might be raped. If you're a woman, that's an everyday fact. Rape happens to civilians and women serving in the military, even when they're not in combat. To say that a combat situation makes a woman more susceptible to rape than when she's walking in her grocery store parking lot at night is illogical.
Another double standard: What if a woman is captured and beaten and shown on the teevee, and all of a suddenly everyone will be shocked and spazzed about OMG a woman was beaten! First, I think we spaz anytime we see someone, regardless of gender, who's been captured by the enemy and treated so abominably. Second, why is a woman's life or well-being so much more valuable than a man's? That's not okay.
My arguments for a woman's right to take a combat role boil down to one essential truth: some of them want to. If a potential service member doesn't want to see combat, s/he shouldn't sign up. If someone goes Navy, s/he should expect to spend time on a ship, and that ship might find itself engaged with the enemy. Ships are dangerous even when they're not dealing with a combat environment. If someone goes Army, s/he should expect to spend time in a combat zone in general, and with the right rate, s/he might even expect to spend time in combat specifically. If none of this appeals, maybe they ought to think long and hard about what it means to be in the military. If they're too scared or the job just seems unappealing, there's no reason push their hesitations on those who are more than willing -- and more than capable -- to do the job.
Why should the rules change? Because they're outdated, and they discriminate. Women are already serving in combat, but their job descriptions mean that service isn't recognized. They're punished within the military environment when they've been in more danger than some of their fellow soldiers, but those who never saw armed conflict get promotions women are denied anyway.
As for Jim's argument that women would be a distraction, I have a hard time believing that those bulky camouflage uniforms and the armor that goes over them will reveal enough feminine cues to distract anyone but the worst kind of horn-dog. I suppose it could happen; but if someone's willing to endanger their cohorts to sniff out a woman they can drag by the hair back to their man-cave, they shouldn't be serving in the first place. They're a danger in general if they can't keep their minds on the task at hand.
There's no call to infantilize women, to hold their physical beings in higher regard than a man's, or to make broad assumptions about their abilities when there are quite a few exceptions to every generalization I've heard. To do any of these invalidates the arguments.


24 comments:
Here! Here!
How could anyone disagree?
Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I do think there is a bigger chance of being raped when you're the only woman in a camp full of guys or when you're a POW. I mean, compared to going to the grocery store. I don't see how that is illogical.
I think women should have every right to choose whether they will serve in combat, but I don't think it's good to ignore the fact that there is a lot of sexual harassment and rape in the military.
But that's just me.
Oh so you want to talk double standards? Here's one for you: since women are NOT equal in physical stength to men, there is no way they will qualify under the same standards. So, inevitably, a SEPARATE set of standards will be implemented to qualify them - just like the separate set of standards in place for women to get out of Basic/Boot in the first place.
What does this mean? This means that since the women in the unit can't carry full combat gear, one of her fellow soldiers is going to have to carry it for her, in addition to his own. And oh yeah, when it comes to dragging a wounded 200+ pound teammate of hers to safety? Nope, no go there either.
In other words, you want women to play with the big boys but not by big boy rules.
Gotta love "equality", especially when you can get around all those inconvenient little details.
Speaking of inconvenient little details, like it or not, men (worthy of the title) ARE hard wired to protect women. Alpha males, such as those in Combat Arms/Special Operations moreso. That's why they do what they do. And while they will fight to protect their male teammates, they will NOT do so at the expense of dealing with the threat directly in front of them or at the expense of the mission. With a woman, they WILL protect her, mission and their own life be damned.
As a woman, I wouldn't want them to be any other way. Then again, I'm not an estrogen tripping bitter seahag either.
Now go ahead and delete this comment too.
Jacqui - if a woman can finish the same training as a man - should she be barred because she's a woman? If both men and women are professionals, they do their job. period. I don't remember seeing ANYTHING here about different standards. If I missed it, please point it out.
LAW
LAW - Define "same training". To me, same means just that, with no qualifications. Women have different PT and training standards in Basic/Boot training. Why? Because they cannot complete the requirements to the same standard as men. Now, if they can't do it there, how exactly will they be able to do so in advanced and far more rigorous levels?
They can't. Which means in order to qualify for Combat or Special Operations, they will need a different set of standards. And sorry, that's not equal.
Jacqui - if the person cannot pass the tests... they don't get in. period. I think for spec forces/seals... they need to be able to do EXACTLY the same thing. but. IF THEY CAN, they get in. period.
Good, then outside of the RARE execptional woman that can meet standards most MEN trying out for these units can't meet, this whole idea is moot.
no, it's NOT moot. It's actually the whole point.
I dunno...I have this friend, Jonesy, who is tougher than any man I know. She's a military combat-type person, who is on deployment, and has the respect of her platoon full of men. She's tough, she worked her ass off to get through the same training. I wonder how she'd react to all this controversy. Seriously, I'd put her up against any man in combat, unarmed or otherwise, and I wouldn't bet against her.
Jacqui,
You're a Rockstar. You nailed it. You hit every single point I would have if I'd been willing to endure the headache it would have given me to attempt to debate this here.
This one is what is truly at the heart of the matter:
"In other words, you want women to play with the big boys but not by big boy rules."
If you can't Grok their vulgar vernacular and their uber alpha male mores, you can't speak on this topic from an informed viewpoint.
I'm a NorCal Hippie-Chick for Goddess' sake. Seriously, I meditate and everything. And I get it; I get them. And I wouldn't want them any other way either. They are among the finest men I've ever met.
LAW, you keep missing my point. Let's try it by way of illustration. Here are the Army Minimum Basic Training Standards that have to be met:
Pushups:
Male 17-21 - 35
Female 17-21 - 13
Male 22-26 - 31
Female 22-36 - 11
2 Mile Run:
Male 17-21 - 16:36
Female 17-21 - 19:42
Male 22-26 - 17:30
Female 22-36 - 20:36
In the interest of disclosure: situps are the same.
Notice anything? Let me point it out for you: women are required to do less than half the number of push ups and are allowed approx 3 mins more time on a run. Think those 3 mins matter in combat?
And the other branches have the same disparity. Matter of fact, the Air Force is even better (situps being the same) :
Pushups for men - MINIMUM standard: 45
Pushups for women - HIGHEST standard: 40
1.5 mile run for men - MINIMUM standard: 11:57
1.5 mile run for women - HIGHEST standard: 10:55
Again, let me point out the obvious: the HIGHEST standard for women is still lower than the MINIMUM standard for men.
The TRAINING is the same; the STANDARD is not. The reason being women, lacking the same degree of strength, cannot perform to the same STANARDS. So a separate set of STANDARDS is in place to qualify women for military service.
And this is just for Basic Training. If the standards can't be met at the basic level, reason dictates it can't be met at higher levels.
Bottom line: (again, with RARE exceptions noted) women can't run as fast, as far, for as long, carrying as much weight as a man. Nor can she carry/drag a 200+ pound wounded soldier to safety. Which means the men have to compensate. At best, that isn't equal. At worst, it puts them in additional jeopardy. But that's another one of those pesky little details.
That's the point. I know it will continue to be missed.
Note for all: I left a comment on the last post on this issue and your oh-so-openminded Navy wife hostess deleted it because she couldn't handle the truth. Feminists and liberals though you may be, you must admit that deleting a comment you just can't argue against is nothing more than censorship, and isn't that everything you liberal bitches fight against?
Or maybe it's like the "pro-choice" debate, where you refuse to admit your ideological predecessors (like Dorothy Sanger) were actually eugenicists who were in favor of KILLING "inferior" people like blacks and Irish.
Once again, I advise you, "Navy Wife," to remove the Obama crap from your site. You're just exposing yourself as an anti-military sleeper agent.
my point is. IF a woman meets the same standards, to go into spec ops, AND I MEAN THE SAME STANDARDS, not "special or tweaked or female only". If she does the same amount of situps, etc., can carry the same amount of weight then she is given the same consideration as a man. Clear now?
Ooof. Yeah, I got your point from the beginning. And IF my Aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.
Kriste: Thank you! I feel that headache coming on myself. So, since my prediction is true and point perpetually missed, I'm done.
Why do people keep coming here expecting anything other than what they find? Why do they bring their conservative ideals and want to argue you to death? I am never surprised by your viewpoints, but am always pleasantly surprised by how awesome they always are.
Sorry Jacqui, but PRT argument is not gonna fly. I am not in the military, but I can do more than 35 push-ups. I can do them 1 handed. I can do push-up jacks. I can do over 50 real sit-ups. And, here's the kicker: I'm 32. I can do the run in the alotted time, so your argument doesn't hold water.
Plus, I might point out that most people entering the military male or female can't meet PRT standards initially, so it is an issue of training, not ability.
You should really watch (even if you can't do) the Insanity workouts. The girls kick the guys buns. Shaun T says "Insanity isn't sexist"; I would argue physical training doesn't need to be either.
I think Doctrine Man sums it up nicely
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/photo.php?fbid=182354748464351&set=a.169913026375190.35223.110598432306650
This.
Alley: Yours was the first time I've ever been forced to delete a comment on this blog, and that pisses me off. I deleted your comment only because I couldn't edit the appalling statement you made to LAW after the Beckisms you offered us. You're a fucking cowardly cuntnugget, just for posting that single sentence anonymously.
You can talk nonsense all day long. Actually, I encourage it since you make my point for me when you show your ass. However, when you throw around imperatives that are one step away from terroristic threats, I will delete them. Take your cuntbaggery elsewhere. But please, by all means, keep making sweeping and fallacious generalizations in comments here. I love to laugh, and until you said what you did to LAW, I was LMAO. Srsly. ;)
Great post! I was directed here by the Unlikely Wife. You hit some great points with the perfect amount of snark.
I'd also like to add that before I dislocated my knee for the third time, I could pass the male version of the PT test. It's really not that hard to run 2 miles in 16 mins, do 35 push ups, or the sit ups. Since I'm 22, I would get the extra minute for the run and do less push ups.
I am really enjoying this commentary and the blog overall!
Yeah I think that there definitely are women out there who can do the requirements the same as the guys and it is for those women this should be a real option for. That is what equality is, the opportunity to TRY! We are not talking having "this many women" in special forces, or "lowering the standards" but rather opening up playing field to the many strong women who CAN and WANT to fight in combat AND get REWARDED for it the same as the MEN!
"That is what equality is, the opportunity to TRY! We are not talking having "this many women" in special forces, or "lowering the standards" but rather opening up playing field to the many strong women who CAN and WANT to fight in combat AND get REWARDED for it the same as the MEN!"
Well said, Hillary!
Jacqui,
I'm a little late to this carnival. I retired from the Army last year. I think it's worth pointing out that your PRT argument is a bit of sleight of hand. The current system discriminates against women and assumes that they are less capable than men. You are triumphantly holding up PRT standards from that current system and arguing that it proves that women are less capable than men. What it does NOT prove is that women could not meet a common standard.
I would agree that a condition inherent in opening all combat roles to women would be to apply a common set of standards. I would not agree that the existence of differentiated standards in the status quo means that women could not succeed. In 27 years in uniform, I've known many a woman I could not keep up with.
(BTW, one thing that I was very grateful for as I got older was that the PRT standards also made allowances for age; your argument suggests that everyone over 26 should have been cashiered because, after all, we needed a little relaxing of the standards to stay in.)
A final comment: you note that women are not the same in physical strength as men. That's quite true. In my experience, women in general have more staying power and less upperbody strength than men. Each is an advantage in different circumstances. However you would decide to set standards, however, there is nothing at all 'inevitable' about setting separate standards for the two sexes.
As a swimmer, I would also note that the difference in upper-body strength is reflected in generally faster times by men than women; I would also note that female swimmers could kick the ass of the average man in the water. If I were to make an analogy of swim teams I've observed over the decades, I would say that actual capability is all over the map. The very top times will be men; but then you will have the elite women before getting to the just 'really good' men, and so on. As a collective, if you told the team to sprint to an island, the first person out of the water would probably be a man, but the unit would arrive all over the map. This suggests to me that in a single-standard open-access military, you might see women 'under-represented' in the Delta Force, but you'd see them scattered all over the place anywhere most men could cut it. One thing to remember is that most MEN couldn't meet the standards that women athletes routinely do.
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